Raincloud Publishing/Dan Allison
3100 Imperial Way, Apt 10
Carson City NV 89706-0809
allisondan52 @ gmail.com
775-997-4937
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Note: ROEE is an informal organization without a single point of contact, but Dan is providing an initial contact point.
Residential Outdoor Environmental Education by Dan Allison is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
This discussion is the result of a posting to the ANCA email list. To view this discussion and any later messages, and other discussions on the ANCA list, go to http://www.edgateway.net/cs/ege/forum/cs_disc/522. You will have to be a member of EdGateway, but joining is free.
From: "Cindy Belt" <
>We plan to renovate our visitor center in the near future, and are hoping to replace our 2 indoor conventional bathrooms with composting toilets. We would locate these outside the main building, which would allow access even when the VC is closed, and freeing up space inside for displays, meeting space, etc. We will probably still keep one accessible toilet indoors for use in the much less busy winter season. We are currently envisioning using a Clivus Multrum system, but are open to suggestions.
Has anyone used composting toilets at their facility (or know of someone/someplace that does)? What has been visitor response? Any major problems or exceptional feedback? Any idea of the cost of installing such a system? Staff here are fairly supportive of the idea, although no one is sure who will be assigned to maintenance of the system... A subcommittee of our Board was luke-warm to the initial suggestion (I think they are envisioning port-a-potties), but we hope to bring them around if our information gathering yields positive results. Any comments or suggestions are welcome!
Cindy Belt, Director of Education and Outreach
Mashomack Preserve, The Nature Conservancy
PO Box 850, Shelter Island, NY 11964 631-749-1001
"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, we will love only what we understand, and we will understand only what we are taught."
-Baba Dioum, Conservationist
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Jeff Brown <
>You might also want to contact the facilities staff at the Appalachian Mountain Club in New Hampshire. They use composting toilets in several facilities, including some of their backcountry lodges. Talk with Construction Manager Tom Bindas at (603) 466-2721.
Good Luck!
Jeff Brown
Director of Educational Operations
Yellowstone Association
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:38:18 -0700
Subject: Re: composting toilets id::83943
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Carl Palmer <
>
After extensive review, we decided against composting toilets for the following reasons:
1) No one on staff wanted to clean them out
2) Our workman's comp insurance would have gone through the roof because had we forced cleaning into a job description, dealing with human waste adds an entire new level of risk (it would have quadrupled the premium for that worker or workers)
3) Many of the models we researched had a bucket and scoop for composting additives - our ed staff was not encouraging about the prospect of kids using these correctly
Elaine M. Gause
Executive Director
Ogden Nature Center
966 West 12th Street
Ogden Utah 84404-5410
(801) 621-7595
www.ogdennaturecenter.org
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - LJ Baylis <
>Hi, I know for sure that the center at Fallingwater in Somerset county, PA uses composting toilets. Im sure if you give them a call they could be quite helpful.
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:46:07 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Walter Jones <
>I have used composting toilets in visitor center and residential applications for many years, beginning back in the late 1970's. I have used them in NJ, TN, IN, and OH. They are also in use in many parks, including several National Parks, and done well they present very few problems.... no more problems than "conventional" systems. The problems/maintenance is just different, not harder.
I am very familiar with Clivus Multrum, Echolet, and others. Clivus has a long term track record and when installed properly they do well.
HOWEVER, I would STRONGLY urge you NOT to buy the Clivus outdoor "package" where they provide not only the toilet system but the building. In an installation in Indiana, and several in Ohio, they were nightmares. The roof design was terrible, letting water get into the holding area underneath, the door system is also a poor design, and the front "stoop" allowed icing that made it very dangerous to walk in and out of the toilet, yet using any kind of melter/traction material tended to get into the system too. Finally, the battery system for their fan was a bad design.
My suggestion is, if you use Clivus, build your own building, and put in heat (99% efficient self sufficient gas space heaters work well) that can be used at least part of each day when temps are very cold. Heat keeps the composting going in winter and will allow for greater capacity of use and much less of a potential odor problem.
I would be happy to talk to you in detail about composting toilets. I have used the low water, dry, electric systems, as well as septic tank/leach field systems, wetland filtration system, and holding tanks. I really like the low water composting units, that look and flush like a normal toilet, but compost, with urine excess draining to a very simple leach field. These however have a lower capacity so far than the Clivus dry systems.
Like any other system, composting toilets require maintenance and care. It is not harder, just different.
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:03:21 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Walter Jones <
>A couple final comments. We are going to install composting toilets in a new education complex here next year, and we expect about 15,000 visitors to that facility each year. This is part of an overall 34,000 square foot building complex we are going under construction with. While our main building will have conventional toilets, the education facility location makes it prohibitively expensive to install conventional sewer tied units there, and there is no way we can put in a septic tank/leach field.
Finally, as to the sanitary situation. In Indiana we had to fight long and hard to put a unit in. It was the first such legal unit ever installed in Indiana and we had to prove to both local and state health and environmental agencies that the unit would be sanitary and the compost produced would pose no health problems to either the worker cleaning the unit, or to anyone who was around where the compost was used-- our butterfly gardens and trees.
So, again, talk to people who have used them for awhile. They have their pros and cons, but so does ANY kind of toilet system, whether sewer hookup (out of sight out of mind but not necessarily all that environmentally "pure"), septic tank/leach field, wetlands filtration, or composting.
Walt Jones
From: "Allison Copeland" <
>I have forwarded your information along to Rick Parker, Principal and Mark Benton, Associate on our staff to see if they have a specific contact for you to talk to at the Frost Valley YMCA. We worked with them a few years back on installing Clivus Multrum composte toilets in several of their facilities. They are located in the Catskills in New York. For additional information on the organization you can check out their website at http://www.frostvalley.org.
We do have some photos here of the toilets, but I'm guessing that Frost Valley may have some better shots. Hopefully, one of our staff members will be able to provide you with some additional information.
Sincerely,
Schmidt Copeland Parker Stevens
Allison C. Copeland
marketing director
1220 West Sixth Street, STE 300
Cleveland, Ohio 44113
216-696-6767, fax 216-696-4767
http://www.scpsohio.com/
From:
I have heard mixed reviews of composting toilets. We took a different approach seveal years ago and installed water efficient toilets and a wetland septic system to treat the waste. It is working very well and is beautiful.
The South Dakota State Parks use composting toilets. They have them set up at Bear Butte State Park. You might contact them to see how the work. No matter how well they work someone on your staff will need to scoop out the toilets, and you'd want to make sure you have a "volunteer".
Rich Patterson, Director
Indian Creek Nature Center
Cedar Rapids, IA
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:53:30 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Walter Jones <
>By the way, as to unsanitary situations or workman's comp expense, that is all urban myth. Installed properly, the composted material end product is quite sanitary and easy to clean out with NO health problems at all... far less than dealing with a stopped up conventional flush toilet that has overflowed in a rest room. They are even far more sanitary than common park pit toilets in isolated areas, and much more pleasant to use.
As to kids using the system, simply do not expect them to put the additives in... in fact no need for ANY visitor to put any additives in.. once a day a staff person simply has to add a bit of wood shavings, usually at the end of the day. Again, compared to common park pit toilets, a composting toilet is a gem.
We had usage at some of the ones I put in at 20,000 visitors per year. I know that some of the National Park composting toilets get equal or greater use.
Walt Jones
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 01:00:21 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Louisa Thompson <
>I'm copying this message to Sam Castleman at ThorpeWood, a private environmental education and retreat center in Maryland's Catoctin Mountains. [Sam, this is from the Association of Nature Center Administrators listserve.] ThorpeWood has several Clivus Multrum toilets (indoors) and I believe they are very happy with them. I used them, and brought a class of 25 adults, and we all thought they were great. Sam told me (1) it's important to keep the seat covers closed, (2) something about the fan that I don't remember, (3) he painted the pipes black (they were clear) for esthetic reasons. There has to be a vertical drop - I don't know how many feet. Usually, they are installed above a basement, but it may not have to be a full basement. You should check out their website, www.thorpewood.org.
The effluent (liquid) has to go into the sewer system under current local regulations. The solid waste is composted for 6 months and contains no detectable E. coli. There should be no problem with anyone handling it.
ThorpeWood also has a marvelous graywater (sink and shower water) reclamation system that is part of the landscaping, using blueberry bushes and stone-covered troughs.
The Chesapeake Bay Foundation has installed Clivus Multrum toilets in its new LEEDS platinum-award winning building in Annapolis, MD.
You received some discouraging comments, but I hope you will persevere.
Louisa Thompson
Ellicott City, MD
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Louis Grannan <
>I am working with composting toilet issues as well, currently trying to get Ohio EPA approval for one located on one of our nature center sites near Goshen, OH in Clermont County, Ohio. EPA seems interested but not very responsive. I have to prod each phone call. Currently there seem to be no statewide policies or legislation regarding composting toilets; it is up to each individual township and county to decide how and where to put them. Ours will be utilizing a system utilizing Phoenix Systems (www.compostingtoilet.com) and will allow all gray water to drain thru a trickle line into the ground and thence into a small wetland area.
Our local health department thought that we had to get EPA approval first, so we contacted Ohio EPA. It would be the first facility in Ohio with that approval. So far, they seem very reluctant to even talk, though conversations with Ron Ware at EPA are promising. Any Ohio folks out there with any suggestions?
Ted Grannan
Oh! The Georgia Appalachian Trail Club, who does have a website, has a "mouldering" toilet at their Hawk Mtn Shelter along the AT a few miles north of Springer Mountain.
You might check that out.
You could also check with Randy Smith at the Athens-Clarke County, Sandy Creek Nature Center. He has two composters in operation in their old interpretive building. They seem to work quite well, but they don't get a ton of use!
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:48:52 -0700
Subject: Re: composting toilets id::83943
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Carl Palmer <
>
The Workman's Comp increase wasn't a "myth." We checked with our state specifically on this issue. I would strongly suggest you check with yours - and hope that NY is more progressive than Utah!
Elaine M. Gause
Executive Director
Ogden Nature Center
966 West 12th Street
Ogden Utah 84404-5410
(801) 621-7595
www.ogdennaturecenter.org
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:42:44 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Louisa Thompson <
>Here is Sam Castleman's response.
Louisa
Cindy:
You are welcome to come and visit anytime. Call and set up an appointment. In the meantime, our contact on the specifics of these matter is John Hanson, info below:
NutriCycle System, LLC
Rep. For Clivus Multrum, Inc.
Lewis Mill
3205 Poffenberger Rd.
Jefferson, MD 21755
Wk: (301) 371-9172
Hm: (301) 371-4274
Fx: (301) 371-9644
EM:
All the best,
Sam
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:55:51 +0800
Subject: Re: composting toilets id::83943
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Gordon Maupin <
>
Mohican Outdoor School
Ron Reed
5370 Bunker Hill Road N
Butler OH 44882
419-938-6671
Cindy, above is contact information about Ron Reed at Mohican Outdoor school. They have installed the system you are looking into.
We looked at it fairly closely for out building too. Ultimately, the Ohio EPA essentially killed it. Even if we had the composting toilets, we were required to put in a full septic system for gray water. (Don't look for reason or logic here. The bureaucratic attitude is "we don't know about these and we refuse to learn...note the hint of bitterness.) Dollar-wise, we would have had much higher costs, same septic system plus the composting toilets.
There are also energy concerns at you have to have a air flow out of the building all the time.
Gordon Maupin
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - cindy Belt <
>Ted-
Thanks for all the info- it really helps to talk to people who actually use the units. I'm finding that I get one version from company literature, another from people who have only used small scale '70s era products, and it'll be nice to see how things work in the real world.
A past intern of ours now works for Hawk Mountain in PA, where they use both Clivus and BioSun (I think).He's coming up this weekend to visit his girlfriend, so we plan to grill him on what works best under what circumstances.
Thanks again for your additional contacts!
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Annie Guion <
>I am investigating the same issue here in CT. I spoke with the people at Mass Audubon's site in Wellfleet. They used Clivus and are very happy with them, and they have pretty high traffic too. The conversations here on the listserve make it clear that the biggest problems come from indiviudal state regulations. I am determined to move ahead on my project here in CT, and the state reg's now seem to make it fairly easy. Clivus actually worked hard to get those reg's changed and the state is now installing compositng units at their park facilities.
Annie
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:31:08 -0500
Subject: Re: composting toilets id::83943
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Douglas Weeks <
>
You may want to check with the staff of the Spencer Crest Nature Center in Corning, NY. They established their center and included a clivus multrim toilet. I believe it has been operating without a problem from the EPA, DEC. or the Workman's Comp people.
Douglas Weeks
TRACKS Consulting
P.O. Box 1102
Binghamton, NY 13902
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:07:26 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Walter Jones <
>We fought the battle with Indiana's EPA and won... it took awhile and was well worth it, as it set a precedent for others to follow. We had masses of good data and info from other places and that convinced them to let us put a system in. We are putting them in here in PA too.
As to energy, the fans are very small consumers of electricity, and we ran our fans, and lights (Rec Vehicle florescent fixtures) off of a single solar panel and one deep cycle marine battery. We could cover the panel with a canvas cover for 8 days and run off a full battery. It would take about a day of sun to fully charge the deep cycle battery from full discharge.
Walt Jones
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:27:55 -0500
From: ANCA Association of Nature Center Administrators - Walter Jones <
>I have been involved with "green architecture", alternate energy (solar, wind) since the early 1970's for nature centers, and composting toilets almost as long. There are always trade offs, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. Solar panels use minerals with extractive environmental impacts, tall wind generators and wind farms kill migratory birds (not as many as tall tv towers, but still it is an environmental impact that adds to the perturbations to migratory birds), and composting toilets have their "cons" too.
However, to me it is one of the moral imperatives of natural resource education centers to weigh the pluses and minuses, and then demonstrate more environmentally friendly techniques for construction, dealing with wastes, providing energy if at all possible, even if it means "picking fights" at times with entrenched bureaucracies. We need to practice what we preach. Of course we also must tell all sides of the story when we interpret what we do, and point out the pluses and minuses of our choices. And, when we learn over time we have made a mistake, we need to openly admit it.
Only in this way do we establish and maintain our credibility as leading stewards of our environments, and only in this way does the larger public we serve see whether what we do might be applicable for individual homes or businesses.
However, as Gordon points out, money is a resource too, and we need to be stewards of that as well. But to let bureaucracy be the major stumbling block is a serious mistake. Attacking them does not work well, but by persuading them by overwhelming evidence, demonstrating we have thought of pros and cons, and sometimes working to convince them to try once as a test site, we can often make them allow what they otherwise have declined.
Most all progress is made by swimming upstream. We in this profession need to swim harder at times.
Walt Jones
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